After this we sat down in the entry way to the church sipping coffee and he began to give us the scoop on Orthodox Christianity. For a faith that in movies often is represented scantily and in strange scenarios I was unsure what to expect. I knew some of the ontological implications from church history readings and I understood the basics of the theotokos belief but was in a listening mood as I knew there was much more I was ignorant of.
From this time sitting and speaking (mostly listening) with Father Christopher We learned some of the basics of the Orthodox church. The Church holds to all of the early creeds, the canon of scripture and recognizes the church fathers, that western churches do. Interpretation differed in some areas, for example the Writer Augustine while largely accepted in the western church is not held in such high esteem in the eastern church, I think this may be due to Augustine using Platonic argument while the eastern church held more to Aristotles formulas.
After this we were shown the worship sanctuary, differing was the presence of Icons for saints along with relics, contrary to some belief the saints are not worshiped. Everything that the devout Orthodox does in a day is blessed, several times Father Christopher paused to whisper a prayer over whateever he was doing, This as well being a difference. In the west everything in our church is very intellectualized, a strong example could be the Suma Theologica written by Aquinas, to current debate on theological aspects. The Orthodox church recognizes mysteries as often not worth attempting to discern as putting labels to all of God would be demeaning to Him.
Refreshing to see was in the root of the faith, that is their, belief on salvation was similar to the west, Believing salvation is by faith in Jesus through his sacrificial Substitution. The orthodox church has some good things to say, and we should have the courtesy to listen. While our belief's are set and we believe them there is no harm in taking a new perspective for a while, how else will you test you theology?
Hmmm... how do you see the Charimastic movement fitting in with the intellectualized nature of the western church? That doesn't seem intellectualized to me.
ReplyDeleteHow is justification given in the Orthodox church? Is not baptism the means of justification?
I suppose that some sections of the western church would not be included but in generalities I would say it is true, but even charismatic groups have theology which comes from somewhere usually an intellectualized western theology.It is hard to speak in generalities, but would agree with the statement in a broad sweep?
ReplyDeleteJustification is believed to be of Jesus alone, in that people cannot merit salvation but it does take effort, more effort than Luther would condone. sacraments such as Baptism, Eucharist and christian living are means to move forward in Grace, or put otherwise expressions of maturing in grace but work in close synergy. There is not as strong a focus on Sola Fida as understood by us, but I am not convinced the evangelical and the Orthodox views on justification stand in complete condemnation of each other.
Well, that didn't really answer my question, haha. What I see in Scripture is that justification is given by the substitionary death of Christ and is only given to the believer through faith. I'm sure the Orthodox Christian believes that justification is through Christ, but so do Catholics. I don't think Scripture indicates that there is an effort on our part, other than responding to the call on our lives. If justification in their system is through anything but faith alone, then I don't see agreement.
ReplyDeleteThings such as baptism, the eucharist and the pursuit of holiness contribute to our sanctification, but they are not the means of justification. Those things are meaningless to the believer who is not first regenerated, has repented and then received the call on his life.
I don't think you can get away from the feeling that faith is contains an element of the intellectual, because God has chosen as his primary means of revelation, a language; a Word. The experience, or the mystery or whatever, is founded on a revealed, objective standard, the Bible. If theology is based on experience, it is not based on the bible any longer.
If salvation takes any effort on my part other than to respond to the call of a sovereign God, then I am in trouble, because Scripture clearly tells me that no one seeks after God. The seeking for God happens after justification, which is a one-time thing. If the Orthodox is like the Catholic, they believe that justification is more progressive, and I don't see that as Scriptural.
They would say that Justification or atonement is the substitution of Jesus, but would say that this faith that alone saves us is non-existent unless accompanied by works, as James writes. Works are not the merit at all but without them there is not justification as the believer must not have the faith to begin with. They believe that grace is not something people can merit but need to do something for.
ReplyDeletedifferent from evangelical belief.
I'm not arguing for their theology as I don't agree with it all just seeking to understand it better. If there is not any effort in our faith than we are hearers only of the word.
There is a difference between an effort expended in the pursuit of holiness and and effort in pursuing justification. Justification cannot be pursued, and the pursuit of holiness cannot be pursued apart from justification.
ReplyDeleteIt is far to easy to "fake" works. I know too many Christians who have all the "works" but treat people like garbage. All of that "work" seems rather pointless.
God is the final judge of our souls. I've never been a fan of justification through faith alone because I feel like it assumes there is no journey, no increasing of faith, no "growing closer to God" which in itself I consider a work. Faith and works are intertwined: out of faith and love of Him who saved us we love the world. And that's biblical.
ReplyDelete:) I really like the Eastern Orthodox church, and always want more opportunities to learn about it.
Jessie:
ReplyDeleteOf course God is the final judge of our souls. I don't believe the doctrine of justification through faith alone contrdicts that. Am I wrong in assuming that you are Roman Catholic? In that case, of course you would not be a fan of justification through faith alone. I, who have been justified by grace through faith, am indeed continually growing in my faith. growing closer to God. That is called sanctification, and is a separate thing. From what I have read from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Catholic teaching sees justification and sanctification differently than do Protestants, hence the position that the Catholic Church takes that we who are Protestant are separated brethren.
Kim:
ReplyDeleteHow did you know I was Catholic? :)
We definitely do take a separate view. While there are a few Protestant beliefs that I can sympathize with and understand where they are coming from in their views, the doctrine of justification through faith alone is one I've never been able to understand, apart from a reaction against heretical ideas where "the more works you do the more you ensure salvation" - which we are fundamentally opposed to. I find myself appreciating the role of living out a faith and that works and acts are a product of faith. And yes, I do think that our views on sanctification and the relationship with justification are different, though I didn't think they were as different as you're suggesting.
Yes, the Protestant view of justification and sanctification are quite different; different enough to start a Reformation and different enough to cause both sides to die for their position. The difference is huge.
ReplyDelete